Oh, I’m not working with all right now if that’s what you are hearing. But, over the last 10yrs — really 11yrs — of practice, the numbers do add up.

That’s actually a lower number then most therapists — I tend to work with people who do a lot deeper of work…

Cal

I wish I could say this this pain is being expressed by you alone — but it’s the majority of what I hear.

Somehow, no matter how many times I hear it, it never ceases to surprise me when the voracious defenders of evangelicalism stand up to fight. I just can’t help but repeatedly think, “Where is this perfect church they all attend?” (Cause, I’ve got about 1200 clients who would love to switch churches — actually many of them would like to resume attending anywhere…)

Cal

The NT shows conclusively that this moral relativism you’re advocating is not God’s ideal, or was even advocated in practice. Once again, it is “useful for teaching, rebuking and training in righteousness” 2Ti 3:16.

There’s no escaping that.

First century Christians did not get saved and then tap-dance on their Torah’s. They continued to study them because there is wisdom in doing so.

I understand completely. You deal with some extreme cases, no doubt. Naturally, you have to derail their guilt and show them God’s grace. That’s a good thing. Really.

But it gets back to the ORIGINAL point, both you and those you accuse have swung to opposite sides of the pendulum. Neither are entirely correct. But when you preach grace from the hilltop and lie in wait for your brother to trip up…

Example: when was the last post you saw me? When you went after the evangelicals. And you had many before that, no doubt. This isn’t some honorable crusade to clean up the church, this is a vendetta.

I understand there are some in the “evangelical church” who may have hurt you or your clients. Many times you’ve placed expectations on people they cannot rise to. Don’t ask a plumber to do your electrical, so don’t ask the average Joe to do therapy. But trying to hurt the evangelicals back is perhaps not the purest of motives.

Yes Cal, we ARE free from sin… But we are not free to sin.

Actually, I figured you would respond exactly like that. You made my key point:

If you are EITHER free or un-free to sin, then you are still under the system of sin and law. You joined the wrong system.

I’ve learned from many things including the law — but that is a totally different question then using it as any sort of rule/guideline/standard/whatever system. As soon as you are under whatever synonym you want to use for observing the law, you are back under a system that is, “Spiritual anthrax.” (I like your term…)

Why? Because, your eyes are then off of Jesus and back on a system designed by God to kill you.

Cal

And for the UMPTEENTH time…the law is not required for salvation. It is not required for redemption. You cannot be saved by it. That’s simple Christianity 101. The law is something we learn from to understand God’s character, prophecy and in many cases will for our lives. The New Testament church used it as a guide as the NT wasn’t even written yet. NEVER was it dispensed with.

Take the law. Leave the law. You’re free to do whatever. That’s the freedom we have. Just don’t act like the thing is contaminated with spiritual anthrax.

Interesting how the original topic was derailed huh? Instead now the words grace and freedom are flying around, but NOBODY has any to give to the evangelical christians. Grace is great…for anybody but them.

I’m free…but the instant I mention learning from God’s law, it seems I’m just not free to do THAT. Like somehow my whole Christian faith went down a notch. Doesn’t that seem just a bit not right to ANYONE? At all?

And Vivian, Christ has been my Savior for years thank you very much. The latest “new and improved” Christianity 2.0 doesn’t interest me. Enjoy your walk with God, but don’t try to carbon-copy it onto others. That’s just not fair because everyone is a different personality.

Not for this cowgirl.

I have never been happier since I let go of any feelings of moral obligation to follow the Law.
The Spirit is leading me and the joy, my capacity to love God, others, and myself is overwhelming.
All things have been made new. Behold!
Anything else is a lie which needs to be set down at the cross where the old life has been left behind, once and for all. Forever.
Eternal life has no bumps, no death intervals, no loss of salvation. no. no.
And since there is no sin in Christ and I have made my home in him and He in me, then I sin no more.
Why would Jesus tell the woman to “go and sin no more” if it was not possible? Because he is a brain dead moralizer? No because He offers new life; High above all rules and regulations. AN ETHICAL LIFE IF YOU HAVE TO CALL IT THAT AND I DON’T, BUT IT IS REALLY SO HIGH ABOVE ANYTHING WE COULD MAKE UP THAT IT SHOULD REALLY LOOK LIKE EDEN IF ALL WOULD REST IN AND FOLLOW THE SPIRIT.

The fruits of the spirit are what evidence the new life. not the dead corpse of our old life. SO THROW IT OFF BILLY.

Seriously man, don’t run away — read the link.

Are we or are we not free from sin???

Cal

Nice link. However, it’s the first time I ever saw it. You assume I’m not a proper Christian because I respect the law as God’s spoken word. I never…ever…said it was necessary to save or redeem. Eating pork does not save you. Not eating pork does not save you. Respect for the law has nothing to do with salvation or grace or freedom. I don’t know of a single evangelical church that advocates that ANYWAY so it’s a moot point. Even Messianic’s don’t go that far. I’d like to think I was fairly open and clear about that. But apparently not.

What can I tell you? I suppose we just have to agree to disagree due to a breakdown in communication.

Ok, now you’re just trolling.

Did you ever read this link I have repeatedly pointed you at?????

http://www.realanswers.net/realanswers/?p=57

When we died with Christ to the law, we didn’t just die to the Jr. Bacon Cheeseburger component of it — dying to free us to eat Pork and junk food isn’t sane. He also didn’t die so we could be freed from the ceremonial tradition part of it — dying for a lie is idiotic. We died to all of it and were raised to a new life that relates only to Christ.

Putting others under bondage doesn’t spread that Gospel — it spreads another one though…

Cal

I’m a therapist<<

They hurt your clients. Now you’re going to hurt them back.

Why else would every second post mention “evangelicals” as the enemy, or the fools, or the misguided? Look back, because you do. That’s not grace towards a brother, that’s revenge. That’s taking every opportunity to shred him. So I’m not the one “firing both barrels” here, just to be perfectly clear.

I’ve seen it a million times. Well, now a million+1. You’re human, and its not like anyone else hasn’t done it. I’ve done it too. Welcome to the fold.

Grace, love…wonderful…but why at the compromise of sound doctrine? Believe it or not, you can have both! And if you do therapy, I’m guessing you do have a sense of both otherwise you’d just say “you’re ok” and kick them out the door. We’re just suffering from a breakdown in the Christianese.

Here’s what I see. The Evangelicals are not completely right.
But neither are you. Way I see it, you’re both wrong.

You’re upset because you or your clients have been hurt by “ungraceful, unloving” evangelicals.

Want to know WHY? Because churches are full of gasp people. You actually expect the average Joe to be equipped to handle some of the things you must deal with?? All I hear is they should have more “grace”. Well, you might as well condemn us all. Baptists, Pentacostals, Messianics, Bretheren, and yes, even the “Emerging”. There’s a reason why people go to therapists for SPECIALIZED help. So it’s a good thing guys like you are around…to do that kind of work. So, thank you.

The law ( Torah ) serves as a guide. It does not save. It does not redeem. It does not make you a “better” Christian. Christ did not have a problem with it…He had a problem with the Pharisee’s man made traditions. Paul told Timothy it was to be used for “teaching, rebuking and training in righteousness”. Perhaps man-made traditions have gone to far in certain places today. Can’t argue with that. But you can’t go from one extreme to the next. In doing so, you loose something good.

The truth is likely in the middle. Freedom to learn from the law of God, not man, without condemantion. Isn’t that grace at it’s ultimate level? Good grace isn’t asking daddy for the car, wrapping it around a pole, and then asking for another without consequence. Grace it may be, but character building not in the least.

I know you sort of think I’m this scribe-type who feels you have to wear a proper suit to church on Sunday and has no grace in his heart, but the truth is we’re probably on the same page more often than not. The main problem is the Christianese 2.0.

As for the Reverend having an obligation. No, more like he has his perogative. Much like you do. “All the world is a stage…”

And not to sound like a raving legalist, but the law ( 10 commandments ) most certainly DID transform the “western” world into a democratic society with the foundation of our law and constitution. Unless Sharia law is preferable to you… 😉 Joke!! That part’s a joke!! But I get what you’re saying…transforming the heart. Only Christ can do that.

I choose Life.

“He who believes in me, Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
John 7:38

Viv.

Firstly, your assumption is invalid. There is no sect. The church I gave the sermon at two times today (Actually now yesterday) is Evangelical. I want to see Evangelicals grow up and get what the Gospel really teaches — there’s no other option for me to join anyway — “Emerging,” still = “Evangelical.” I want them to be free because only grace and freedom can transform this miserable world — the law never did.

Ok, so let me get this straight: What you are saying is that if a person has Rev. before their name, they have some sort of responsibility or moral obligation to foolishly take a request that they say grace or pray a customary prayer of blessing over something and turn it into a warped (And rather tired) rant in the form of a prayer against all they consider wrong in the world??? (BTW: Many things that most believers would profoundly disagree with — E.g., Taxes = coveting???)

Right and wrong: Of course. I’m a therapist remember??? I deal with brokenness and chaos every day…

The law, like with all believers, drew me to Christ through killing me as I lived under its curse for so many years. But having died to that which I was bound to, I now serve in the newness of the Spirit — rather then in the oldness of the letter. (Rom Ch 8 )

The old system of shame and guilt made me want to be bad, the new system is simply an intimate life of, “What’s next Daddy.” That is so far from the breaking of the law it is no longer even worth considering — but it also goes without saying that having lived under that freedom, I can certainly see the distorted thinking in what it looks like for another to live under bondage and, yes, I also can see the blast craters from such in their hearts, minds, lives and relationships.

Roman’s 14:14 makes it VERY clear that I can still live in sin — but only if I put myself back under the old system. To do so, I have to make Jesus into a minister of sin though… (Gal 2:16-21)

The difference between us is that you interpret all of the above in terms of what YOU do to avoid sin — while I interpret it in terms of what Jesus did in freeing me from sin and changing my heart.

You then expect me to put people under a moralistic code as a solution for the obvious damage their choices are creating — while I prefer to remove any roadblock to the intimacy with Jesus that transforms a heart so, instead of hungering for the swamp water they have lived on for all these years, s/he profoundly loathes that damage and chooses Living Water.

The closest Jesus ever came to confronting sin in the heart of an individual was with the woman caught in adultery. With all the aggressive confrontations he leveled against the religious leaders who thought themselves so righteous, do you think He just forgot — or was He ushering in a new deal (where He changes the broken human heart — and we simply love it) that doesn’t demand the crusade you assume to be so necessary?

If Jesus didn’t find it necessary to open up on the broken with both barrels, why do you?

Cal

Yes, he is. A pretty remarkable transformation — though it could go a lot further from where I’m standing…

Cal

Sorry, I was under the impression evangelical Christians dated back to Antioch. My christian granny is older than that.

However, I’m glad you’re pro-personal evangelism as in the case of your pastor friend. World needs more of that for sure.

But that has NOTHING to do with this anymore than Solomon’s dedication of the temple did in 1Kings8. Or Peter’s first sermon in Acts.

This is not about winning friends and influencing people, the context was a prayer for a nation. Different context entirely.

Would a generic prayer be more acceptable? Something comfortable to the ears? We all need a shot across the bow from time to time to be reminded of who we are, and what will happen to us if we stay on a continued course.

But agreed…I honestly DON’T expect it to make a broad, nationwide impact. His prayer probably had the same overall effect as Solomon’s in that Israel went astray anyway.

As more the prayer being irrelevant, who are either of us to say?

And as for abusing a trust…he was REVEREND Joe Wright for Pete’s sake…what DID they expect? I just don’t buy into that argument at all. They put a man of God in that situation, and He called a spade a spade. Kudos to em’.

Which brings me back to my main question…
…Do you have a concept of right and wrong, or is it all just about making everyone feel “loved” and “included”?

One additional note -IF- this was a man from YOUR sect ( whatever it is, I have no idea ), you would be the first to jump up and say, “Way to stick it to them! Those evangelicals wouldn’t have had the guts!!”. I guarantee it.

You’re just taking up a contrarian position because it was an Evangelical Christian.

Good to hear from you again!

So, tell me, has 50yrs of this sort of evangelical rant done anything to halt the decay of our society?

Oh, we impress ourselves and email it around like a little trophy of our own wisdom — but nothing changes out on the street.

I used to work for a minister here in Calgary (First Lutheran Church — Remo Madsen) who took the time to befriend the mayor — a resident of the area around First.

He never preached at him. He had coffee with him, he hung out with his kids and their families hung out together, he drew him into his church, he (re)introduced him to Christ, he taught decent theology from the pulpit and he took Him through courses on our faith.

He took a guy who had repeatedly voted to kill off even development permits for churches into a man making decisions that were profoundly pro-faith/faith based ministries and who, only last year, was willing to give up his seat rather then back down on a homeless shelter run by a faith based group. (Other aldermen were trying to kill it.)

He changed the life of a leader though love — and that leader is (mostly) making decisions consistent with that changed life. (Or at least far less dumb decisions…)

I don’t really care if this guy’s prayer was heart-felt or not, it was stupid. He abused a trust placed in him by those leaders and twisted a situation to fit his short-sighted ends. It didn’t get the job done — worst of all, it made sure that he never would again get close enough to those leaders to get that job done.

Love changes the world — when you walk a broken human heart into what it needs, it looses its taste for that which it was settling for. (Woman at the well for example.) People getting their needs met as God intended automatically = morality.

50yrs of Fallwellian attack-dog tactics disguised as a prayer won’t change anything — but it will, forever, make you so irrelevant that anything else you have to say is automatically ignored.

But hey, you can always gain status by impressing all your other little buddies in the church with it…

You took a heartfelt prayer of repentance for a nation gone astray and twisted it into a rant against legalism and the evangelicals.

Wow. I’m just stunned.

Do you even have a concept of right and wrong, or is it all just about making everyone feel “included”?

I’m looking in the Bible for examples of that, and coming up with zero. Narrow door friend.

Sorry if this comes off as a snide comment, but it’s just, Wow, I really don’t know how else to say it. It’s like you’re saying morality is a terrible thing thrust upon us by legalists.

Doesn’t our nation have enough of that kind of thinking?